Testing the Spirits

Justin Holcomb:
There are warnings against conjuring spirits, necromancy, and other related occult practices that are found in several places in the Old Testament. I rattled some of them off. These passages show that conjuring spirits and necromancy are not only forbidden—just, “Don’t do it”—but there’s a reason. Not that we need a reason—you could just say, “Don’t do it”—but there’s a reason: those are rival spiritual allegiances. It’s attempting to access power or insight apart from a covenantal relationship with God. So, it’s not just superstition or “dabbling in a different spirituality.”

Michael Horton:
It’s idolatry.

Justin Holcomb:
It’s idolatry, and it’s rebellion. How can we tell the difference between a true spiritual experience and a deceptive one? Why does holding on to sound doctrine matter in spiritual warfare? What does it mean to live in a world filled with real spiritual forces? We’re in a cultural moment where spiritual experiences are increasingly normalized and even sought after. From psychedelic visions to stories of angelic encounters, the line between truth and error can feel blurred. Scripture doesn’t leave us guessing. In this episode of Angels and Demons, we’re talking about what it means to test the spirits and hold fast to the truth in a spiritually charged world. I’m Justin Holcomb, here with Mike Horton, and, as we frequently say, the usual suspects or cast of characters. There’s no Bob Hiller, no Walter Strickland, but Adam Smith is with us.

Adam Smith:
Sorry.

Justin Holcomb:
No need to apologize.

Michael Horton:
It’s a big burden.

Justin Holcomb:
We’ve been spending some time for almost two weeks doing some Theo Global work, so we’re recording here in Nairobi. We were just in Cairo. Adam, we know you, but let’s make sure the listeners know who you are and what you do. Please introduce yourself.

Adam Smith:
Sure, thanks. Glad to be with you again. It’s maybe a couple of times a year I’m together with the White Horse Inn crowd. My name is Adam Smith. I am the director for Theo Global, which is a project of Sola Media. We collaborate on theological discussion, publications, and productions with majority world scholars. A few times a year, Mike, Justin, and I travel to Asia, Africa, and the Middle East to work with theologians and institutions—that is, theological education institutions and organizations—to do theology together with these scholars, and also to cooperate in whatever way is valuable.

Justin Holcomb:
You’ve been doing this for ten years.

Adam Smith:
We’ve been doing this for ten years.

Justin Holcomb:
This isn’t a new thing; you’ve been learning from experience. Mike and I would sing your praises behind your back. You’re the man who makes it all happen so we can show up. All of the weeks and weeks of work behind the scenes—connecting with people, churches, pastors, leaders—it’s you. You’re also managing editorial of the “Prophet Priest King: The Theology Together” series that we’re doing. So people will see your name there if they get that book. Listeners can go to Solamedia.org and find Theo Global very easily—it’s not hidden anywhere. It’s a Sola Media ministry. Thanks for joining us. Let’s dive in and talk about Testing the Spirits.

We’ve been discussing the topic of angels and demons throughout this series. For a long time in the West, there’s been this idea that the secular society we live in is disenchanted—we don’t believe in the spirituality that once shaped life in, say, medieval Christendom. Secularism is therefore seen as cold and materialistic, and Eastern societies are seen as enchanted, superstitious, and comfortable with mysticism. Mike, you’ve critiqued this polarized narrative of East vs. West. Can you elaborate on that?

Michael Horton:
Sure. The story I’m telling in my “Shaman and Sage” series really contradicts that, because even some of the leading scientists of the 20th century were part of theosophical groups that met regularly in Ascona, Switzerland, to do all sorts of mystical, Gnostic rituals. We’re talking about Ernst Mach, Schrödinger, Planck—famous names—along with theologians like Ernst Troeltsch and Paul Tillich. So, there’s always been—if you go to Silicon Valley today and talk to people, they’re very spiritual, mystical, and definitely open to otherworldly, New Age stuff. But they bring it under the auspices of the natural. That’s why I call it, after others, “natural supernaturalism.” It’s not God breaking into this world—it’s that Nature itself is bristling with divinity.

But there is no God above us or hell below us, or whatever.

Justin Holcomb:
And that’s why, in the West—sorry to interrupt your train of thought—but in the West, yes, it’s materialistic, individualistic, and it can be secularized. What was the phrase you borrowed?

Michael Horton:
Naturalistic, natural supernaturalism, which is also true in the East. For example, Buddhism is materialistic; besides its doctrine of detachment, there are aspects of Buddhism, especially Zen, that fit well with materialism. It’s a misconception, for example, that philosophers of science today—those at the cutting edge—say we need to return to the oldest religion: animism. In Africa and other parts of Asia, animism is the folk culture that’s now making its way into churches—a kind of syncretism. But in America, it’s as much a part of life as New Thought or the New Age movement. It’s been with us for a while.

Adam Smith:
You’ve often talked about “natural supernaturalism” as it relates to things like chemistry and magic.

Michael Horton:
Yes.

Adam Smith:
So, now, through advanced technology, you have this “supernatural” thing happening through natural mechanisms, unlike magic through chemistry.

Michael Horton:
Exactly. The idea is that Nature itself is magical, divine. You don’t need a God outside of it to move or direct it. It directs itself.

Justin Holcomb:
While we’re here in Cairo and Nairobi—and we have people from all over the region, not just those two countries, but probably ten or more represented—you’d expect “enchanted cultures” by this simplistic reading, but they talk about skepticism and rationalism, too, alongside traditional beliefs. Back in the “disenchanted” U.S. and West, we have wellness culture, astrology, psychedelics, and even conspiracy theories that mimic religious structure. So, the idea that you’re problematizing—this simplistic binary—makes sense. The categories bleed into one another a lot more than we think. Anything else about “disenchantment”?

Michael Horton:
There is a deeper, longer heritage of spirits and demons, and a big embrace of the higher world in African native spiritualities than in the United States, except in Native American spiritualities. In their worldview, God, the supreme creator, is so far removed, so transcendent, that you rely on the mediation of ancestors and other spirits to look after you, to take care of you. That’s why the prosperity gospel is so successful: it fits that need. Now I have a concrete roadmap for naming and claiming my prosperity here and now.

Adam Smith:
I think it’s helpful to point out this isn’t just our internalized diagnosis. This is, as we’ve had conversations with theologians from all around Africa for years—particularly this week—something they’ve been articulating as a trend: African Traditional Religions (they call them ATRs for short). With that background, they’re seeing how churches not firmly planted in the richness of Scripture often migrate back to traditional religious practices and concepts—magic, witchcraft, those sorts of things. Those practices aren’t checked and balanced by Scripture, and can fit right within church culture.

Justin Holcomb:
So, just to recap on the east-west binary: what we’re saying is that it’s overly simplistic and misleading—there are still differences, but they bleed into each other. Different ways to be enchanted and disenchanted, and yes, the West is influenced by materialism and secularism. Africa does have a longer history of this. With all those qualifications in place: what are some similarities in your experiences between Eastern and Western views of spirituality and mysticism? India, Southeast Asia, South Asia, Middle East, North Africa, East Africa? I’ll go first. What jumps to my mind is this shared desire for immediacy. In both contexts, the desire to feel a spiritual, unmediated experience seems to translate across cultural lines.

Michael Horton:
Yes. And one thing that’s different, too, is in many African and Asian countries, there’s what sociologists call a “locative society.” The individual is in the family, the family is in the community, the community is in the king—it’s like Russian dolls. There’s really no sense of the individual; you belong to the group, the community. The “roof” is, as Charles Taylor would say, very porous between nature and the supernatural. You have angels ascending and descending, doors open between heaven and earth. In the West, those doors are closed. Spirituality and mysticism in the West—somehow materialism evolves into its own kind of spirituality. C.S. Lewis’s “materialist magician:” there are people who are, at the same time, materialists and spiritualists. By day, rationalists excluding God; by night, holding séances. In the West, materialism and spiritualism coexist like that. In places like Africa, the door has always been open between heaven and earth. That’s closer to the biblical worldview, actually, but it also opens itself up to bad forces—we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but principalities and powers in high places. In the West, we tend to downplay that—that there are actual dark forces at work.

Justin Holcomb:
I remember in seminary, one of our professors asked, “How many people here are naturalists?” No one raised their hand. “How many of you are supernaturalists? You believe in something beyond the natural world.” We all raised our hands. He said, “You’re all lying. You don’t even believe in angels and demons; you don’t think angels are in this room, or anywhere near what we’re doing, or involved in anything we’re doing.” That’s how it plays out—the doors are closed.

Adam Smith:
As we see interactions with the pantheon of gods—how we describe that as probably being demonic—this brings up the issue Justin mentioned about immediacy and control. We’ve seen around the world, in different cultures and religions, that there are two pendulum swings in dealing with intermediary forces: either aspects of control (immediacy, where you do in order to get or affect) or fatalism (more of an Islamic approach, perhaps, where things are just determined). I’m generalizing, but you get the point. Can I do anything in the midst of the supernatural realm? Some think not at all, some believe you can significantly affect it. In Thailand, for example, at a temple, it’s easy to buy bells and flowers and incense—because as you use them to serve the gods or spirits, you believe you now have control and that they owe you something.

Michael Horton:
It’s just like the prosperity gospel, really. If I know the secret passwords—it’s almost like you don’t even need God. Press F7 and a Snickers comes out.

Justin Holcomb:
Ring the bell three times.

Michael Horton:
Exactly, ring the bell three times. It’s all about spiritual technology—the right ritual, and you get the result. But often, the desire to control is a response to fatalism: at least you can control your fate in the spiritual realm. The “magic man” can harness the celestial powers higher than fate. There’s a way to get around fate.

Adam Smith:
I don’t want to go too far without inspecting ourselves, too: how is this prevalent in us? Even if it’s not bells and whistles, magic, or technology implanted in our brains, I think we still try—this is something I attribute to learning from White Horse Inn over the last twenty years—it’s not my personal devotions, prayers, or good deeds that affect how God relates. It’s not something I earn through good works or being faithful, or being a good husband or dad.

Michael Horton:
Who has ever given Him a gift that He should repay him? Of Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Adam Smith:
By grace alone, through faith alone—that’s the goodness and glory of God applied to us.

Justin Holcomb:
Let’s move toward the “testing of the spirits” passages and get some application. I don’t think I’ve shared this story on White Horse Inn: a few years ago, at a Christian college, doing my own thing, I encountered someone who was tormented or perhaps possessed. I still don’t know what happened or need to know. Someone said, “I think I’m possessed,” and then something happened, and they went through my family members by name, and I thought, “What in the world?” It could have been just a biological response, but I was thinking of psalms, the Lord’s Prayer, and so on. We’re not saying this just happens “over there”: demons are alive and well all over the world.

We’ve talked in previous episodes about increased use of psychedelics in the West and people encountering spiritual beings, and about other types of spirituality. Let’s bring in some categories to think through these. We have “testing the spirits” from 1 John 4:1–3, connected with Deuteronomy 13 and 18 on false prophets. There’s also conjuring spirits and necromancy in Deuteronomy 18, Leviticus 19 and 20, 1 Samuel 28, Isaiah 8—places in the Bible where that’s discussed. In some places in the world, there’s more awareness of “testing the spirits.” But let’s bring this to all listeners: how do we think through testing of spirits, necromancy, conjuring spirits?

Michael Horton:
I would separate or distinguish testing spirits from sorcery and so forth.

Justin Holcomb:
Yes, two categories there; I’m not conflating them.

Michael Horton:
Testing the spirits is actually more intellectual—a matter especially rooted in Deuteronomy. You’re trying to figure out who is a true or false prophet, based on empirical, evidential criteria: do their prophecies come true? If not, they should be stoned because they’re taking God’s name in vain. They’re publicly attaching to God’s holy name things He never said. They’re liars.

Justin Holcomb:
This is Deuteronomy 18. First John is giving commentary and application to Deuteronomy 18—this is the intellectual part. “But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.” That’s about what they’re proclaiming, not a spirit popping up somewhere.

Michael Horton:
Yes. God is not saying, “Well, sometimes people are frauds, but at least be open to the spiritual world, to me doing new things.” No, it’s not “let’s be open,” it’s “let’s be discerning.” So the Old Testament dealt with necromancers and sorcerers, séances being held in Israel (as in 1 Samuel 28). The biblical faith played a major role in the transition from magic to science. You first had to “demagify” nature, so it could be studied as natural creation. Before, everything had a spiritual power behind it—superstition. But then, Israel, from the outset, says, “No, there’s one God; he’s sovereign; he created all things. There is no blending of creator and creature.” Nature is not divine or sacred. Nature is my servant, not part of me. There’s a categorical distinction. That’s the main difference between biblical faith and pagan mysticism: the affirmation that God is qualitatively distinct from the world.

Justin Holcomb:
There are two key pieces in Deuteronomy 18 and 13: did their prophecies come true? If not, then they’re a false prophet. The other is doctrinal fidelity: are they calling you to faithfulness and talking about the faithfulness of Yahweh? In 1 John, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit.” Testing spirits is not just a vibe you feel. “Test the spirits to see whether they are from God; many false prophets have gone into the world. By this you will know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of antichrist…” That’s a clear passage about spiritual discernment in the New Testament.

Michael Horton:
It’s about the right confession.

Justin Holcomb:
He’s talking to Christians, not pagans. “Don’t believe every spirit”—that’s sobering. Not every spirit claiming to speak in Jesus’ name is actually of Christ. So how do you know? Not by your gut, or the fruit you see, or how close it makes you feel to God—it’s a doctrinal test: an objective Christology.

Michael Horton:
Here, John gives a specific criterion: anyone who is docetic (teaches that Christ only appeared to have human flesh) is anathema, and you know they have the spirit of antichrist. That’s purely theological. If they’re docetic in their theology—reducing Christ to a phantom—they’re on antichrist’s side.

Adam Smith:
With that, it’s fitting that the Westminster Confession moves from “What is the chief end of man?” right into “What is our rule for faith and practice?”—the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments.

Justin Holcomb:
It doesn’t matter how persuasive, passionate, or even miraculous false prophets are: if they can’t profess full, objective Christology—fully God, fully man—they’re not true.

Michael Horton:
Augustine said of the Donatists: “I don’t want you to show me your novel doctrines from your long-winded sermons or from your signs and wonders, which Jesus told us false prophets would perform in the latter days. Show me in the scriptures—by the patriarchs, Moses, the Psalms, the Gospels, the epistles. Show me by the Scriptures.” He rejected their so-called signs and wonders. We know the apostles’ doctrine was sealed by signs and wonders, and doesn’t need to be re-sealed by pseudo-apostles.

Justin Holcomb:
I mentioned Old Testament passages earlier, so just to summarize: there are warnings against conjuring spirits, necromancy, and related occult practices in multiple places in the Old Testament. These passages show that conjuring spirits and necromancy aren’t only forbidden, but there’s a reason: they’re rival spiritual allegiances. It’s attempting to access power or insight apart from a covenant relationship with God—not just superstition or dabbling.

Michael Horton:
It’s idolatry.

Justin Holcomb:
It’s idolatry and rebellion.

Michael Horton:
If you know the bottom line here: either God is not good or not all-powerful. If you can’t trust Him to take care of you, you go to other spiritual vendors. Or, if He’s good but not powerful, you fill the gap with spiritual “technology.” Either way, it’s about being in control—trying to know or shape your future rather than resting in God’s providence.

Adam Smith:
That brings out the goodness of Christ as mediator. Instead of looking for control or other agencies, entrust things to Christ—who’s demonstrated and achieved for us what no other agent or spirit has: dying for the sins of the people, mediating directly before God, raised on the third day. Christ is all we need.

Michael Horton:
He’s all we need. We don’t need pseudo-mediators. The Reformers confronted the medieval church on this kind of superstition—Christianity is a different religion from that.

Justin Holcomb:
One last question: defending orthodoxy can sound stale—a lecture, not spiritual warfare. How can Christians see holding fast to the gospel and true doctrine as a vital force in spirituality and spiritual warfare? Paul, in 2 Corinthians 10, talks about doctrine as a weapon that tears down strongholds.

Michael Horton:
It tears down every stronghold—every thought set against Christ. We’re talking about doctrines set up against Christ, not military strongholds. Our minds are conformed to the image of Christ; it’s intellectual, but it’s not merely intellectual. In Ephesians 6, we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with principalities and powers. We are presently wrestling with them. So, what’s our response? All-night prayer vigils and exorcisms? No—Paul says put on the helmet of salvation (go back to basics—salvation), the breastplate of Christ’s righteousness (which extinguishes the devil’s darts), the belt of truth, feet ready to preach the gospel, and the sword, which is the word of God. Paul’s saying: the armor you need is Christ, Christ, and more Christ—gospel, gospel, and more gospel. When Satan tempts you to doubt your salvation or Christ’s sufficiency, throw the gospel at him. That’s what Paul says: in the clearest passage on spiritual warfare, the answer is the gospel, not spells or rituals to counter the dark side.

Justin Holcomb:
That’s everything, folks. Exploring these topics is important because people are often chasing the dramatic, but real spiritual power is seen in someone resting in Christ, clinging to His promise, and refusing the lie that Jesus isn’t enough. In this episode, we explored what it means to test the spirits in a world fascinated by supernatural experiences. The Bible calls us to discernment—not every spiritual encounter is holy, and not every vision leads to truth. But as John reminds us, we test the spirits by whether they confess Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and is fully God. Doctrine is not cold or abstract, as you told us, Mike—it’s spiritual armor. In holding fast to the gospel, and in God holding fast to us, we resist false prophets, false gospels, and false spirits. Our defense isn’t spiritual sensitivity; it’s the truth of who Jesus is and what He has done.

Adam Smith:
Amen